Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Okay, so we'd love to… I'll just do a little recap, because I realized I didn't record for every people who watched the recording. We're looking at different ways that we lead, and what leadership has been modeled to us, so more like harmonized or authoritative leadership.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): This would be, like, more trauma-informed, you know, in all the ways that we lead.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And then authoritarian or control-based leadership.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Uninvolved or checked out.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And then vague-only or permissive, right? So, again, of course, with any framework, it's way more complex than this, and our nervous system states don't map exactly, of course, but when we know what kind of leadership style we've been raised with.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): What has been modeled for us.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And what we…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): tend to in our best moments, and in our most pressed and challenged moments. It can help us be more trauma-informed.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And so I just want to open it up for anyone to share any questions or insights. I'm seeing a lot of insights in the chat, which I'll come to in a moment, but I wanted to hear from folks first.
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): I'll speak here, because…
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): I do tend to be authoritative, but I have gotten more and more non-directive and accepting
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): over time because of being more trauma sensitive. So I would say that there are some pieces that are in there in the permissive.
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): Quadrant that are more trauma-informed.
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): And that it's going to depend on the population I'm working with as to what authoritative ends up looking like.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Thank you for bringing that in, because in a way, right, you can almost…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): see this as porous, with this blending this way, or this blending, like, your… and that's why I kind of, like, harmonized, because
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): You're right, there are absolutely some conditions
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): You know, when I was teaching court-involved youth.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): sometimes I needed to be more clear, right? Not controlling, but clear, right? So it's, like, more this way. And then there are some times when, say, I'm working with survivors, adult survivors of childhood sexual trauma, where I need to be leaning much more heavily on the warmth
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): someone in another context might say, wow, you were kind of permissive, but I know that actually that was harmonized. So this is why it's, like, it's a framework that we can totally problematize.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I think I'm not this, but guess what? When I talk in a way, just even my tone, right, when I'm talking right now, and I sound so sure of what I'm saying.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): In some contexts, that's totally control and authority.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And I don't mean it to be, but that is my conditioning. As a daughter of an Indian
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): man. You know what I mean? Like, that is how I… and then going to school and studying Western philosophy, right? I learned to fight.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): with authority.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): With authoritarianism, essentially.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And so, yeah, it's… everyone's map of this is gonna look different because of our conditions, and it's gonna change, right? So it's not like any of these get demonized, or like, this is wrong, it's just, what are we pulling on in what moment? Thank you so much for bringing that forward. Yeah, Celine?
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): There is… another piece of that, though, is that it's not just what we're bringing to it, it's also how it's perceived. And someone who has come from an authoritarian background.
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): it may perceive my authoritativeness as being authoritarian, when it's actually… that's not where I'm coming from. But it's close… they have not experienced authoritative.
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): And how I'm being clear, or having boundaries, whatever, might be perceived as authoritarian.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Totally, yeah.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): That's so helpful to know, because it can be really tough when you're showing up trying to be this.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): But, say your students treat you like you're, like, the worst, you know, tyrant, and you're like, wait, I'm trying to be here!
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And that is also really a helpful… it's all… I think it's so helpful to know
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And sometimes you don't really know until you just show up to that learning space, or teaching space, or yoga space.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): what are the bodies in the room? Like, the people in the room, how have they been exposed or related to power? And often we can assume it's been this, right? It's been very authoritarian, and so they may be reacting to us.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Based on that.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Anyone else want to speak?
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah, Miriam.
Miriam: Yes, I just thought about, my cycle, because I think during premenstrual, face, I am…
Miriam: Teaching, like, vibe-only teaching.
Miriam: like, go with the flow.
Miriam: And not at all, authoritarian.
Miriam: So… yeah, so it really depends on the…
Miriam: Day… time of the day, and time of the month.
Miriam: Also.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And how powerful is that, you know? To, like, own that? And again, none of these are… are…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): not to, like, stigmatize any of them, right? Because this vibes… I like vibes forward, personally.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I like a little clarity, but I do really like vibes when I take classes. So, yeah, I love that. And then naming for people, too. They may… the same person might come to your class through a whole cycle, right?
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Menstrual cycle, yearly cycle, life… and it may be different every time, based on where they are.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I also want to see, someone said in the chat about using scripts. Yeah, I use scripts.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I use an outline, and gave you all the outlines that I use. Those are the… when I go teach, like, in the wild, I pull out the scripts inside Yoga Class Curator, and I use those. And…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I also sometimes completely stray away from them, but I have them in front of me, so I have a foundation to work from. And I personally will… my kind of process is all…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): like, if I know that I want to teach a class focused on swadhyaya, I'll do the practice myself, that morning, or the day before, or even for a week before, or even a month before, depending on the context and how much time I have to prepare.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I'll be in that energy at very least the morning before, and then I go and teach, and sometimes based on what's in…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): in the room…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): what I actually teach is totally not what's on the script, but having the script also helps me as an excess need as well. So just really lifting that up. I don't think…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): scripting has to mean we're checked out at all. I think it can mean we care, and it's the way that we know we…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Are more, like, harmonized and trauma-informed.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): So many things in the chat. Anyone else out loud?
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah, outlining, Celine says, different from scripts, help to know what I want to cover, and basic path scripts are word for word.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Most people read differently than talking. Yeah, acting classes can help with reading from the heart and soul. And I think for access, some people need both, right? Some people need, like, a general outline, and some people need a full script. For me, just again, access need, I found I couldn't
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): actually, we… I would write out my entire class word for word, because I needed that to feel… have my nervous system feel at ease.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): But then in the moment.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): it wasn't as useful as if I took my full script and turned it into a kind of an outline, so…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Just saying, like, all of that was coming from care, not from, you know,
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah, scaffolding for our vibes. Scripting lesson planning is scaffolding for our vibes. And then there's some people here that are like, what are you even talking about? I just show up, I feel what's in my body, I feel what's in the room.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And my classes are awesome, right? And that's great, and I appreciate you all. I am not you, so I need all the prep.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And I appreciate, you know, all the different ways that we teach. Karen?
Karen McMillan: I want… I'm going to ask for guidance rather than sharing my perspective, because when I think about whether it's the age of the child or the newness of a student.
Karen McMillan: it's… I know we have the ability to blend, but I don't know if we can maybe talk more about sometimes to make it so people can surrender.
Karen McMillan: Like, I taught little ones who…
Karen McMillan: You know, kid… little bitties need… they feel safer with more control.
Karen McMillan: So, how are we giving that safety?
Karen McMillan: And being in control.
Karen McMillan: But at the same time being harmonized. Is it the tone? Is it… what are we talking about?
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Well, what do folks think? And maybe some new voices who haven't shared? I love this question.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah, Catherine.
Katherine Sorensen: Yeah, I think, one thing that I keep coming back to is actually the poles rather than the quadrants, so thinking about it in terms of you've got warmth to coldness, and then you've got, like, basically strictness to permissiveness. And so if you're…
Katherine Sorensen: if you're…
Katherine Sorensen: if you're in a situation like you're a machine, Karen, where you do need to exert a little more control over the situation, I think as long as you're holding onto that warmth and coming forward with warmth, you're still in that harmonized space. And yeah, remembering that it's a quadrant that's, like, porous, like Susanna was saying, and not
Katherine Sorensen: You're firmly in one, you're firmly in the other, and there's nothing in between, you know?
Katherine Sorensen: So, I think, yeah, keeping in mind that warmth pull is helpful.
Karen McMillan: Thank you.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah, Lisa.
Karen McMillan: And it came up for me is…
Karen McMillan: I tend to… I'm coming more into the yoga, but I spent many years with this whole yin and yang.
Karen McMillan: Masculine and feminine, and not being energies, not genders.
Karen McMillan: And so… control… But soft, so that your… yours really helped me. Catherine, the whole concept of warmth.
Karen McMillan: Right? Because you can have control, but it doesn't have to be hard.
Karen McMillan: But it does… there's a discipline to, you know, so I'll keep thinking about it more, but what other words come up as I think of being in control, but maybe not aggressive. Being in control, but not aggressive.
Karen McMillan: Thank you.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Coming to Lisa, and then said, Therese.
Lisa E. (she/her): Yeah, I… I think, or I experience myself when I'm grounded, or when I ground myself and my nervous system before the yoga class starts, it's easier for me to stay in this harmonized leadership thing, so, I think that
Lisa E. (she/her): the students also, like, they feel how I show up, and…
Lisa E. (she/her): maybe through my voice or my words, when I'm, yeah, when I know what I do, and when I'm grounded in myself and my nervous system, they maybe don't need that much words, because they know that what I'm teaching comes from an authentic place.
Lisa E. (she/her): I don't know if I… yeah.
Lisa E. (she/her): some words are missing, because, yeah, my English is not that good, but…
Lisa E. (she/her): I hope you, you, could follow.
Karen McMillan: Yes, yeah, cause… And I forgot the person said before, but it's… I guess it's where we're coming from.
Karen McMillan: You know, so how people receive it is one thing, but what you're saying is where you're coming from.
Karen McMillan: And especially if they know you.
Karen McMillan: You receive it. Thank you, Lisa.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Thank you. Lisa, coming to you, said Cherise.
CydCharise (she/her/noh): Yeah, I think when we talk about control and how I contextualize control as
CydCharise (she/her/noh): A teacher and as a parent is…
CydCharise (she/her/noh): control needs an agent, and it needs also a subject. And so, my kids, or my students.
CydCharise (she/her/noh): are their own agents, and they have control over themselves and their choices, and I, as their parent, or as a teacher, have control over the container that I set, the lesson plan, if it's a lesson, or…
CydCharise (she/her/noh): the activity, if I'm parenting, and so that's where I…
CydCharise (she/her/noh): Give the structure and the control.
CydCharise (she/her/noh): But not over them as a person.
CydCharise (she/her/noh): And so, I think… for me, that's how I try to harmonize, is like… Always… naming what I'm…
CydCharise (she/her/noh): Taking control over, or agency over.
CydCharise (she/her/noh): I usually preferred the word agency than control.
CydCharise (she/her/noh): Awesome.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I agree, yeah, control feels weird.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I think I'll change that. And, just, like, appreciating you all for this experiment, because…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Again, perhaps taking a model that's not quite right, And seeing what in it
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): we want to… or it brings insight, and what we want to completely let go of, including, perhaps, the four quadrants. Like, maybe this is more of a circle or a spiral.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): But I like agency… honestly, I also think of it as power, right? Like, we… in Embrace Yoga's Roots, and I want to answer this one question about Embrace Yoga's Roots, we talk a lot about power and structural power, and in a classroom and in a yoga space or yoga room.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): we actually have power over those people who have come in, you know? And in a school setting, we have a lot of power. I had the power to send students, unfortunately, I wish I didn't have this power, but into the school-to-prison pipeline.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And so, pretending I don't have that when I do, I think is part of why some people are like, well, I'm not gonna treat you like a harmonized leader when you can literally, like, send me into prison, you know? Like, that's a mismatch. And…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): don't act like you're so, you know, like, warm and fuzzy when you can literally completely mess up my life, you know? And if I'm not acknowledging that.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): it… how can I ever… how can they ever trust me, or have warmth, or fun, you know? So it's… some of it is, like, acknowledging
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And a lot of us here, we teach survivors of trauma, we teach people in recovery, we teach maybe people coming out of prison, you know, prison systems, or court-involved folks, and so there is very real stakes connected to structures of power.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And so, agency is great. I do think we… and I don't think it's control, but I do think we need to understand and map and track power as well.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And… So, Therese, the thing you said, it's like, at the end of the day.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah, like, we don't… we can't force our children, or our students, like, I mean, we could, but…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): we're not… generally not going to exert power in that way, and so then how do we think of, like, owning that power or that agency responsibly? And…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): as a trauma-informed teacher, leader, or parent, inviting them into their own agency, right? And their own power, and continually reminding and putting that back, because really.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): once again, problematizing this grid, it's less of a grid, a circle, a spiral, as, like, a
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): 40 model, where it's like, the power is actually in you, you know? And we're just there to help.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Facilitate a experience of that, a reminder of that, a release of whatever into that.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): for others.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): and ourselves, right? Like, it's not just about them only, it's us too, so it's all of this movement. I don't know…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): This would be really fun, I feel like, to create the yoga version of that graphic. I have no idea. Some of you are, like, super into this stuff and want to work on this.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): With me, that would be awesome. But I do feel like this… that complexity of how healing happens, how power and trauma-informed leadership and
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Liberation, really, happens.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I don't think we have the map of that yet. You know, we do in the text, but not in an image.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Someone asked, I do want to address this one, I think we only got one question. Julietta, correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I finish the course, do I have to watch all the office hours? Oh, no, no, no. No. No, you don't have to go back and watch those. No.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): They're really just for…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): honestly, the reason we record them is, like, if, say, you really wanted to be at this one and you missed it, you could go back and watch… like, it's more timely, time-bound, right? Or you liked the conversation and you want to go back and, like, pull out the journal prompts or look at the scan. So, those are really just there as, like, a record.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): what I'd love if we did one day… oh my gosh.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Would be to go through and, like, name the theme, because then, instead of the date, it would be, like, this on this topic.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): But just being real with you, I don't think that's gonna happen unless we use AI, and I really don't want to use AI for that.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Or at all, like, for things, when I can avoid it, because it's a lot of work, so I have to only go watch it and, like, pick out what the theme was.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): But yeah, you do not need to watch, rewatch all the past office hours. They're really just there as a reference for you, not as a, you should do these. They're, like, to support your learning, or for people who
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Just like to revisit, or… yeah.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I'm gonna close this in a second, but… because I know we're at time, but I just want to kind of land this in…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): in your body, right? Being aware of…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): What does it feel like when the center of power and agency
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): is harmonized. Whatever that looks like for you, like, forget this, like, could be, you know, a star, could be squiggles, could be, you know…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): A cloudburst, or a rainstorm, or lightning, you know, you're…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): like, harmonized agency leadership power. How does that feel?
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): why I'm asking is because when we move out of that feeling, knowing what's happening, so we can then move back into it.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): In the ways that help us, like, relate and lead in a more trauma-informed way.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Yeah.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And then… I love this.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): I love… I love all your reflections. Maybe if you want to drop any takeaways.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): But we'll just close with a…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): A felt sense of that inner alignment, harmonized inner power, maybe in a…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Mountain, seat, or standing, or sitting, or lying down.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): connection to that felt sense. And if it doesn't feel so close right now.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Just gently exploring what might make that more possible for me.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): What do I need? Maybe it's a nap, maybe it's a drink, maybe, you know, like, water, maybe it's… or tea, maybe it's…
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): A friend.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): Right? Like… We don't have to do it alone. We're interrelated.
Susanna Barkataki (She/They): And thank you so much for inviting us to unmute and say goodbye, and just, really appreciating each of you.
Louise Brown (She/Her): Thank you, bye!
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): Thank you. Thank you.
Karen O'Lone: Thank you.
Selene Kumin Vega (she/her): Thank you so much.
Laura: It's wonderful.
Emma H. (she/they): Thank you.
Eva (she/her): Thank you.